Somewhere the way they travel the things they do they're going to leave evidence. So it is possible to see male Mountain lions roam into the northeast - there was one hit by a car in CT a number of years back - but we don't have a breeding population of Mountain lions in New England. This is a machine-generated transcript, and may contain errors. Here she is talking about how to identify a mountain lion. So I learned about what Rick just reported through a heart of heart of New Hampshire a letter and. And in fact in 2011 when it was announced that the eastern cougar was officially extinct the reason that announcement was made is because they said really that it never existed. So Michael follows with the question. That's too big for Bobcat. Give us a call if you have a question or comments or story about perhaps seeing a mountain lion here in New Hampshire. I'm Peter B yellow. Give today. John if you're still on the line here I was going to I don't. I wasn't employed as biologists at the time of a situation that's been reported but so I started digging into this report and spoke with another wildlife biologist with the agency and said Do you know anything about this. Can you look into this picture. Peter Biello: So Rick seems like you agree that the tail is a big giveaway whether or not it's a mountain lion Absolutely. I just stood there just a second and I came to a complete stop and then I ran away. So Pat you field a lot of calls about people seeing or reportedly seeing mountain lions. So give us a call now. And you know all that. Peter Biello: Wow. And what was really remarkable about the whole thing was I was maybe a half mile down on all buildings. Caller: Well I think Patrick I recognized your name. The American Lion The Saber tooth Tiger and this was the one that survived. People have asked me about the genetics of eastern mountain lion. So what counts as verifiable evidence? You know one of the the biggest questions I have about that is it points to how much we don't know and if in fact we don't know enough. So I reached down to grab the camera and looked back and like a ghost it's gone. So I hate the idea that there's some sort of upward you know downward pressure from the bosses saying Don't you know don't tell about the mountain lions because it'll scare away the tourists. So when we hear mountain lion there's also cougar there's wild cat there's Bobcat which is not a mountain lion maybe Patrick could you sort of spell out the different terms which are synonymous and which are completely different animals. So so in 2011 a mountain lion was killed in a car accident in Connecticut a car hit a mountain lion and killed it. I looked at the picture and asked me what do you see in the picture and I wrote back. Today she talked with us a little bit before the show about why the mountain line is so compelling and why we want it to be part of our world. Patrick Tate: Yes. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. The nonbelievers are going to say Show us your evidence and show us prove this to us. Tell us your story. Really appreciate it. Patrick Tate: Nice talk to you too. So what I'm getting back is the verifying and confirming of evidence what that was not there. You're on the air. We'll hear from her periodically through the show. So that did it for me. It all used to be based on measurable physical traits color, skull size, paw size, etc but now its based on whether an animal can be shown to be genetically distinct from others. I hope she's listening and she had spoke to a lot of different people ended up having a couple of sightings of her alone without sort of by accident. Sam Evans-Brown: Well this might be a good moment to talk about hoaxes. But if you were to get Western dispersing mountain lions just would just sort of expanding into New Hampshire. It doesn't happen as much anymore. Had great trees behind it beautiful ferns on the ground so it brought me down on the site and the ferns on the ground matched. Were there any differences between these two that we could have noticed right off. How far were you from this cat. And they used to be this whole list of the different subspecies of mountain lion and it has since been reduced to just to the North American and the South American. You could trace that was this same cat from point to point to point. We have evidence and as biologists we would find it quite exciting to find that evidence of one in the state. And Rick van de Poll naturalist and founder of ecosystem management consultants of New England. Information that weed family automotive dot com sunny for today high temperatures low to mid 80s clear tonight overnight lows in the 50s tomorrow sunny highs in the upper 80s. Are there Mountain Lions in NH? So this whole illegal pet trade black market pro trade thing does does exist in a situation like that can happen. Peter Biello: We at this e-mailed comment from Michael. About Us Media Kit Calendar of Events Volunteer Visit Learn Events Membership Support Your Visit BUY TICKETS Know Before You Go Directions and Information Our Animals Live Animal Exhibit Trail Hours and Admission Calendar of Events And a lot of people around the county airport have seen a lot of pilots coming in said they saw huge. It's not an emerging endangered species no work no there are there are populations in specific states so the Florida panther is is an endangered species that sub population is in fact listed under the Endangered Species Act. Caller: And then there's the Lily Pond Road and then there's a six foot tall fence. And still the the folks there did weren't able to come up with it with 100 percent certainty what deposited that scat. All they think it traveled north through Canada up you know crossed across the Great Lakes and then and then down again through New York State. About Lions. There have been several sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. He said matter of fact I do. Mark Elbroch doesnt think so. We're not in the woods. There are mountain lion in Massachusetts. So one thing that I find fascinating about this Connecticut cat was six months between the New York situation where they found evidence of it too when it was hit by a motor vehicle. Pat humans people leave deer carcasses up in trees. I actually been interviewed a couple of times by reporters and with all due respect for the media you know facts aren't always communicated correctly. The Connecticut Mountain Lion is the best documented wild Mountain Lion in New England. And so so with their limited staff and limited budget that is that is more and more limited every year because you know fewer people are buying hunting and fishing licenses. Thank you very much for being here. I mean it wasn't your idea. Like why would you want one wildlife. For starters, part of the confusion might come from the fact that the eastern cougar was taken off the endangered species list earlier this year. So take care of this problem. Rick van de Poll: 80 90. Mountain Lions are a mythical creature in New Hampshire with strong feelings on both sides of the question: are there Mountain Lions in New Hampshire? Right. And I was probably about a half a mile from downtown all village on the right. Peter Biello: Rick I believe you did mention that that they do leave carcasses up in the tree from time to time but are there any other species known in New Hampshire to do this on a regular basis. Patrick Tate: It became a very interesting investigation over time because it started becoming. Join as a $8 per month sustainer and get our brand-new owl umbrella! And they were using all the habitat. Women control our lives. And maybe it's a no holds barred nostalgia for a better world a wild or Fuller world not a world that's constrained by our boundaries and our taxes and our highways. And Rick Van de Poll naturalist and founder of ecosystem management consultants of New England. And listeners this has been a lively conversation we're sorry we didn't get to all the the e-mailed comments and the phone calls your stories are appreciated even if we didn't get a chance to hear them today. I've actually had to walk in on one or two now and look at what was going on and figured out what was going on. So for me as a person who's had the Bobcats right off my grits similar carries sticks to a bobcat The Long Tail obviously very different but those facial markings were overlapping for me. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction. Michael Brindley is our program manager our producers our Jessica Hunt and Christina Phillips and our theme music was composed by Bob Lord. Is there something particularly hospitable about New Hampshire Forests that make them want to come here. Peter Biello: This is NHK PR Good morning and HP are summer car raffle is back and now's the time to get your early bird tickets. But are there mountain lions living in New Hampshire? And it was you know 10 or 12 people saw it all at once. So I did a bunch of research and all the documentation I found was there art are not any pieces of DNA of Eastern online. It was not a bobcat. There were several sightings in CT over the last few months. They get a lot of media attention but compared to the the amount of times that a mountain lion could attack a person but doesn't because they don't typically view us as prey. The views expressed in this program are those of the individuals and not those of an HP are its board of trustees or its underwriters. If it's someone that has an illegal captive animal that is accustomed to humans those leave a lot of evidence because they want to go around humans to find food meaning they're used to being fed by humans. You know you have to have a license and it's hard to get that license a license to own a mountain lion. The most common areas to see mountain lions in Arizona are in places of rocky and mountainous terrain. Peter Biello: Well Mike thanks very much for sharing your story. Caller: And the more I thought about it the color of it it was definitely not a bobcat. I've seen him in the woods and that was not a bobcat but I was looking at. Anyways after three weeks I finally found the image on line on a field and stream photo contest and the explanation in the end was the person that set the camera out with another individual and they believed that someone who knew of the camera location saw the similarities put the can't picture on their SD card so it looked like that camera recorded the image that is. It's bigger but bigger and better world. OK. Rick van de Poll: Rick and I would add that if a mountain lion male takes up residence and successfully finds a female as pets there's gonna be a lot more evidence there will be like deer carcasses up in trees and territorial marking and claw marks and tracks and it you know dispersal is gonna be very tough to see or observed but residential parrots a totally different story. Peter Biello: Let's go to Mike in Epping. Right. Fish and Game then deny the evidence. Caller: Are probably. Thanks for your call. Chartered: 1973 . So now what's going on. We'll also hear your stories if you have them again. We'd love to have you in the queue. Patrick Tate: So I agree with what Sam said in part that their ability to go undetected for amount of time but ultimately it was detected. I'm gonna send you a letter that we researched this report and we spoke with those labs and the lab wrote in their letter to us that they could only say that Scott contained white Tea Party fur and that they could not say what deposited the scout because it's far too degraded listeners we'd love to hear from you about your mountain lion sightings if you have seen one or if you if you think you have give us a call we'd love to hear your story 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. You saw what you saw. Peter Biello: And that will make identification for a layperson rather difficult. Peter Biello: Hmm. Can we go to the site. Peter Biello: Let's talk to Ron and where Ron thanks very much for calling. Peter Biello: The number is 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. You know I think it's there's a lady Holly Ernst out in California who has done a lot of the genotyping of mountain lions in Northern California the ones that are of course most people have heard about taking down hikers bikers etc. But before I go any further I want to say we do not have sufficient game. DNA from scat or from fur, a clear track that is confirmed by an expert, or a photo that clearly shows a mountain lion. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. Wed love to be part of the first verified sighting. Peter Biello: Yeah. Now Bobcat is a completely different species. Some are included in lists of mountains, such as the Appalachian Mountain Club (AMC) list of the Hundred Highest peaks of New England, or the . Mountain lions remain an enigmatic animal for residents of New Hampshire, with New Hampshire Fish and Game reporting three to five sightings per week. Today, their range stretches from the Yukon Territory in Canada along the western coast of the United States, all the way to the Southern Andes in Chile. I was a Bobcat we saw it and I have a picture of it. Its actually fairly reasonable to believe that mountain lions do, at least, pass through occasionally. Mountain lions live in the state. And today we're talking about the mysterious elusive mountain line with folks who know something about it. Enable JavaScript by changing your browser options, and then try again. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction 3,207 views Jul 31, 2019 78 Dislike Share Save New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife 634 subscribers During my thirty-one career at the New. Sam Evans-Brown: So Tim so this cat's been been referenced a couple of times I think we should talk about it specifically lay the whole story out for folks who haven't heard the story because it's actually I think really indicative of a lot of stuff for talking about. And here we're talking about in this situation we're talking about it migrated from the West. And it came out we could see it had and we could see its long swooping tail. So and so the idea that they can follow up on every individual sighting is just crazy right. Are these big cats back?Subscribe to WMUR on YouTube now for more: http://bit.ly/1lOjX9CGet more Manchester news: http://wmur.comLike us: http://facebook.com. Patrick Tate: Well. We mentioned that one cat that was hit by a car where it has it that it was a male looking for me. I would say that there's going to be the truth in here somewhere. So I would put this in the category of sort of like shark attacks right. They sent he sent his scent those two samples with his to Wyoming an unfortunate Fish and Game Commission there did not get a positive read on it but send it back to Central Michigan University where they did a nuclear micro satellite DNA analysis and found no significant difference between that scat and other scats that were tested from the Rocky Mountain region. You can see two of them at Squam Lakes Natural Science Center in Holderness NH. We'd be inundated with scouts in the past when newspaper articles have been written about DNA and scouts. The unheralded hero of Apollo John Hubble the man who knew the way to the moon. You know I'm like seriously I can't get a picture of the thing but what it what it is. Well I can't tell you what you saw. Sue Morse: The big cat really commands the utmost respect not so much fear but fascination. Hunting is legal, but closely regulated by the state. So before we get to the the the the stories of sightings we're getting a lot of calls. He studied Politics and Spanish at Bates College, and before reporting was variously employed as a Spanish teacher, farmer, bicycle mechanic, ski coach, research assistant, a wilderness trip leader and a technical supporter. Mountain lions (especially males) have incredibly large ranges that they defend from rivals. Patrick Tate: Okay. Peter Biello: Today on the program Patrick Tate New Hampshire Fish and Game Wildlife biologist and far better project leader Sam Evans Brown host of an HP podcast outside in which is about the natural world and how we use it. Have you seen one. Me Im willing to believe its possible that there are some out there. brings a lot of. You treat it as if it's a sincere situation. So I think in that story there's there's something for the believers and the nonbelievers and I and you know Mark L. Brock is who is a gentleman with the cougar Network told me this story is evidence that that if they were here we would know about it. Think you've seen a mountain lion. 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. And so maybe before I go to you recommend I ask you Patrick Tate is the standard too high. There are corollaries in other states. So you know until I found those two scats I didn't think that mountain lions were here in the east. Sam Evans Brown. Well just that I have evidence and it was not it was denied by fishing game at the time and I you know there's I don't need to prove to anybody that I saw one just like some of your callers said okay. JavaScript must be enabled for some features to display properly. But having read a bit of information about his cougar there are a darker subspecies. Caller: Oh yeah. The second one was not only fresh but when I actually put my hand on it it was you know smelled like cat and I it's there's no denying a fresh mountain lions get if you can tell it every story that KOAT. So I want to start the program with a comment from someone who is not in the studio with us today. Course like Sue said you have to see it and it's not always that visible. Sam Evans-Brown: You know the North America had a number of large predator species when humans first arrived in the continent. Join as a $8 per month sustainer and get our brand-new owl umbrella! If so that's for us as an agency. So for those reasons I don't believe the standards are too high the amount of game cameras out on the landscape to record images department alone through contracts had over 150 throughout the state biologists go through various deer yards throughout the year. www.wildlife.state.nh.us, Buy or Renew Your Saltwater Fishing License, Great Bay National Estuarine Research Reserve. Really appreciate it. So there is definitely no downward pressure by anyone. The report came in from a conservation officer. I can't. So I just brought up the bobcat thing because the location is fascinating to me that that that location we have Bobcats existing but that location we have a mountain lion report because it's a developed area and which brings me back to earlier what I had said it's a bouncing ball. And sometimes I've seen pictures of those where it's the question is What is that is that a bobcat. I saw that had this giant the bobcat had this giant sweeping which is John Bobcat don't have big sweeping tails. Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. For me as a person who's handled many bobcats and looked at many pictures Bobcat the White chin Bobcat right off is what comes out to me and then the black the the roughs on our Bobcats we'll have sometimes have black fringes on them. And that's this morning at 10:00 here on NH PR. Sort of dropped onto the SD card of a camera he'd set up out in the wild. Rick van de Poll: Well I didn't. (Cue the X-Files music: The Government is denying the cougars exist!) This decision was primarily for nerdy phylogeny reasons, though, because the eastern cougar probably never existed. Today on the exchange we discuss what residents may have been seeing and what breeding mountain lion pairs would mean for our ecosystem. And so a mountain lion is actually quite large right. Peter Biello: Yeah some of what she was saying sounds like it would require getting pretty close or at least having a nice zoom lens right Sam like. So one thing I'd point out is we've been talking about situations with no evidence a number of them come in with photographs and yet what they fit what they description of the animal they saw and by the way I got a picture of what I saw. Through DNA they approximate area in the United States or North America where I was born. Peter Biello: So if they were female mountain lions here they would be more males just because that's what they're looking for. SUE Morse naturalist and science director for the organization keeping track. Peter Biello: Ok weird question but do they make good pets. Kyle I think about Rick Tate wants to jump in here. There'd be there'd be all sorts of you know basically a lot of hassle required if that were to happen. From came from out west they tracked it all the way back to the Black Hills in the Dakotas. and territorial animals are much more inclined to create a problem with passer bys than dispersing animals in fact I'd be totally shocked if a dispersal would encounter with a human purposefully unless they had already had some type of training to do so. And it was unmistakable. About two years ago I was at the Laconia airport on the way home from the airport and there's a big lake on one side called Lily Pond. Well they are the same. So. Patrick Tate: While a juvenile not a juvenile I guess if you want nodes to the base of the tail for juvenile that wouldn't be small at all. I mean there was this one lady I remember and tough tomorrow. Right. Patrick Tate: And there's one other way to model that is the same animal. Listeners give us a call if you'd like. Known to exist in the state for over well over a hundred years. So so it is possible in Maine to still to to to have one but you have to be sort of professional handler as it were. I think as Pat was saying you know 35 to 50 pounds on a male be reasonable range whereas mountain lions you're up to 100 110 maybe even 130 pounds on a big male. And boy it was big it had to be at least 200 pounds the thing was you and and it just made a little bit of noise and it was gone. And now that everyone and their mother has a remote camera in their back yard its just so, so unlikely that there are resident, breeding mountain lions in New England that are living invisibly among us, he says, Its become Big Foot.. The tail leave is a giveaway but not everybody gets to see the tail. But no proof was offered. 1957. I mean no doubt a seen Bobcat seen his stuff. m from a weed family Automotive on store Street in Concord is serving the Concord area families automotive needs since 1995. We send out DNA samples to the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station. It's unfortunate that that kind of thing happens as often as it does. Pat ruse and he was sampling doing DNA samples from cats in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. So let's let's go to the phones. The second story window through about 30 feet away from it. This is where things start breaking down when you so I get pictures with this great description and one of my favorite stories is a great description what the witness and then so I called the witness and wanted information from them and the person says What are you talking about. They lived perhaps elsewhere in New England and they were just passing through and happened to have an encounter of some sort. Thank you. Is this kind of a typical story. I came to a stop and it was and I've seen a lot of bobcats in my time and I just came to a stop it was just sort of confused about what I was seeing. N.H.'s Fish and Game department says there's no proof mountain lions live in the state, yet residents from Bedford to Berlin have been reporting sightings for years. They just end up in these places. So nowadays we think of this in the Northeast as crazy stuff that people have a mountain lion as a pet. For instance, Floridas wildlife officials have a similar ghost cat: the black panther. Well let's hear from from Sue Morse again science director for the organization keeping track. On a dirt road. They don't know the direction they're going. Let's look for other evidence. The number 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 so promised a discussion about conspiracy theories. There wasn't a distinct subspecies the North American mountain lion is all is all one species and then you can find a genetically distinct South American subspecies. We actually have the largest subspecies of bobcat in the northern part of our state which they can get up to 40 and over 40 pounds which looks like an 80 pound the animal to visually and quite large. I've collected scat samples I've got several in my collection. Yes. Love hearing these stories. However if if and when it does happen it takes up a lot of resources looking at that situation and identifying what's going on because when you start out you don't know it's a hoax. Patrick Tate: Martin Like what about Panther Panther saying animals same animal and like a bit of trivia Guinness Book of World Records says the animal with the most names is in English alone they're supposedly 40 names for Mount lion. Really appreciate you guys being here as well. I found a second scat scent both to him. Yeah 13 to 15 years ago 13 to 15 years ago. And just one more note about this danger question when even when you look at the states that have extended populations stable populations of mountain lions attacks are relatively rare. That's pretty elaborate. So. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. And trying to figure out the little pieces to identify him so I bring up the names the differences but the appearances can be confusing for some. I don't know if she still is. Sam Evans-Brown: And second the evidence required is is you know pretty pretty tough to gather. And there's there's no evidence of that cat's movement in that entire you know 12 hundred miles stretch of its journey. It's listed as population of least concern. People go through great lengths to create hoaxes like this. Thank you. Patrick Tate: Yes. I mean that so many of them are false sightings we. However the scarring on the trees did not and the angles were off. Patrick Tate: Yeah yeah. How to Report a Possible Mountain Lion Sighting. Give today. Just one quick point I think I think when we we talk about these conspiracy theories the real story is that fish and game is an agency that that is short on budget and staff. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HP yard today we're talking about the mysterious elusive majestic Mystic Mountain Lion. Are these big cats back?Subscribe to WMUR on YouTube now for more: http://bit.ly/1lOjX9CGet more Manchester news: http://wmur.comLike us: http://facebook.com. But you won't find evidence of their existence in paw prints in the snow or a deer carcass in a tree. Let's talk to Bob in Laconia Bob. Support for an age PR comes from you our listeners. So one thing I'll add. Thanks for taking my call. 235 or nhandy@ledgertranscript.com. Mountain lion or cat running across. Despite numerous reports, the NH Fish and Game Department continues to have no physical evidence of mountain lion presence in the state. Id like to hazard the explanation that we really, really want to see a mountain lion. We want answers. But the state always denies it, and none of us know why they deny it. And so. Fish and Game looked into the labs to have them confirm the information in the reports which the labs did not. Sue Morse: First and foremost if you have color or if you could see details of color look at the front of the face around the Pumas muzzle the muzzle itself is pure white. BUT THAT SAID, Id love to be proven wrong. Sam Evans-Brown: I just want to say the bang and word you just heard I think to me exemplifies why it's really hard to come up with with positive you know 100 percent certain evidence that you've that what you've got is a mountain lions. Rick van de Poll: Well education is the real important thrust of of what all of us do as biologists and Game Managers and to make sure that a things like what Sam was saying that in spite of what you believe the mountain lions will not eat your children they will not steal your pets from your backyard and they will not necessarily be seen by you unless you're extremely lucky. Ive received pictures of dogs at odd angles, says Tate.
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